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Scott Schuman: “Magazines are driven by fear”

September 28, 2011

Mr. Schuman, nowadays teenage bloggers like Tavi Gevinson are getting flown around the world to sit on the front rows of fashion shows in order to write about them. Isn’t that getting a little absurd?

Well I don’t think her audience is that big. I think her success is a little bit of a conspiracy by established print media that wanted to show that this blog thing is not that important, that it’s done by a bunch of twelve year olds. But a lot of us are serious grown-ups. I think it’s great that Tavi can create a blog and write for other people that are like-minded – probably other kids around her age – but I don’t know how that is going to help a 26-year old, if she has never had a boyfriend or any of that kind of stuff. She’s just a kid, so she can talk about art and stuff only in an abstract way.

Do you think she is going to last?

She might grow into that position, but to me it is like a five-year old Michael Jackson singing about love – to him they are just words. It is just an abstract concept. One of the other problems of many blogs like Tavi’s is that they are people who write about fashion, but in order to have a visual element they steal pictures from other people.

And the pictures they do take themselves often look terrible…

True and as soon as they start getting some real advertisement, all the people they have been stealing pictures from are going to call and say, “I need some money. Why do you keep stealing my pictures?” So for blogs to take the next step, they have to have people like me who are in charge of all the elements – the writing, the visual, everything. Those are the ones companies can buy into, because I control everything. For someone like Tavi to take the next step, she is going to have to go out and get a photographer to shoot everything.

Do you read any other fashion blogs?

No not really. The only one I look at is my girlfriend Garance Dore. To me she is the game-changer right now. She is a great writer, she does video, illustration, and photography. I look at her and I get jealous because she is so artistic in so many different ways – she does great illustrations, heart-felt writing, beautiful photography, and inspiring videos. She is funny, consistent, and her point of view on fashion is great. So that is the only blog that I look at on a consistent basis.

Do you fear competition as more and more copycats of your website The Sartorialist appear online?

No because in order to do it with any longevity you actually have to make a business out of it and actually be able to make money. They might do it for a little while, but it’s hard to keep the passion to do it until you make money with it. And as soon as they start making money, if they are not controlling that, all the money is going to go right out to all those people they are taking stuff from. So I don’t know how a lot of them are going to make a business out of it.

Talking about financial benefits. Do you make money off your blog or do you make money because of what you have created around your blog?



American Apparel bought advertising for the whole year and then I just got an email yesterday that Net-A-Porter.com is going to buy advertisements for the rest of the year (2010) as well. So those two ads alone are a good fraction of a million dollars: more than a quarter million and less than a half a million. The key for me, and for Garance also, is like any good business: diversity. I make money from shooting campaigns and editorials, from prints, the rerelease of my photos in different magazines, and from doing personal appearances. I make money from a bunch of different places.

So are the times when a blog couldn’t make any money over?

Yes, the blog itself is really making money. My audience is so much larger than everybody else’s that advertisers, well at least American Apparel told me that I am not in their internet budget. My order is so big and they have to pay so much that I am actually in their magazine budget. That comes from having a good size audience.

Also the price of an ad on your page for a whole year is still fairly cheap compared to, let’s say, a double page in a big fashion magazine.

Oh yeah definitely. But I think the thing that has worked really well, and this is potentially a new day in media, is that what they are buying into is not just the image but also the amount of integrity. The thing that I am very proud of is, even though they bought ads for an entire year, I have no relationship with my advertisers; I have no contact with them.

They are not calling you saying, “Every month we need to have this and that.”

No, there is nothing. I don’t think of them as advertisers; I think of them like a sponsor. They are kind of sponsoring the site. They let me go out there and do my thing.

Have magazines lost their integrity because of the power advertisers have?

I think everyone knows not to believe in magazines anymore, they know that magazines are just page after page of advertisers.

What do you mean?

Magazines are driven by fear: they have to keep these advertisers and do these things for them. But now blogs have grown so big that I get emails like that all the time. But we know, Garance and I, that the thing for us is the level of integrity so we just don’t do it.

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Short Profile

Name: Scott Schuman
10 January 1968
Place of Birth:
Indianapolis, Indiana, USA
Blogger, Photographer

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136 Responses to this Interview

  1. Kenny The Cameraman

    I’ve never heard someone sound so arrogant and obnoxious in my life.

    I’m going to go stab myself from this new found depression.

  2. the guy is smart, about time someone spoke the truth!

    come follow the first ever fashion blog from a Guys POV, let He know what you think
    Fashion by He

  3. Jesus. He really needs to keep his mouth shut and just take pretty photos. What a tool. He’s just jealous of Tavi because she’s taller than he is now.

  4. Wow. This guys is a dick!

  5. he just has a great website millions of people are visiting, more worth than some magazines, he just is the biggest in the whole blogging business. and he’s right in what he’s saying.

    • Word. Totally agree, he’s just being honest and straightforward.

    • He celebrates a certain amount of class and grace in what he photographs, yet he employs neither of those virtues in this interview. Who trashes a teenage blogger, regardless of whether or not he is right? Who denounces blogs that cull pictures and then admits to not reading fashion blogs on the whole? Who shamelessly promotes their partner as a “game-changer”? Who publicly discusses how much money he makes like saying a “good fraction of a million dollars”?

      Really, there is a time and a place to discuss these things. But a public forum is not the right one. It just drips with arrogance and, perhaps, insecurity.

      • Joe,
        Why is it shameful to promote his girlfriends work? I made the decision to marry my wife for the rest of my life. If I’m willing to make that sort of commitment, wouldn’t I also be comfortable promoting her as a competent and excellent person for the work she’s done?

        • That’s great, Chris, it is a rarity that you found what many people are searching for in life. With that aside, this does not excuse Scotty’s behaviour. Perhaps we may consider, paradoxically, that mentioning his girlfriend is a conflict of interest. Moreover, he’s leveraging her to further beat down Ms. Gavinson. There’s nothing wrong with promoting someone who’s work you admire, but that’s not apparent here. Scotty is a classist mastermind that weaves his words with insidious intention.

        • @ Chris,

          Yeah, I wouldn’t take issue with promoting your partner or wife or best friend or whomever’s work if was stated in a way that was respectful of others work. To say that you don’t really read other people’s blogs but oh yeah, my girlfriend’s is really the best, seems pretty tacky to me.

  6. I’ve enjoyed The Sartorialist for a while now, and as much as I love his work, this article made me want to vomit. Of course his girlfriend is the only “game-changer” out there right now – Maybe if he had qualified that with a little humor it wouldn’t have sounded so arrogant. If only I could un-read this!

  7. He talks about bloggers stealing photos but is he having everyone he photographs on the street sign a model release form? He’s making money off photos of people. He’s making money off of other people’s good fashion sense. A little hypocritical if you ask me.

    • You missed his point.
      He’s out there on the streets — around the world, actually taking those photos, edit them, and publish them. Of course he has some kind of contract/agreement with the people he shoots. They probably won’t get a penny. But I guess all those people that are so into fashion doesn’t mind the free exposure they get from a million viewers.

      Besides, it doesn’t take away Scott’s effort he puts into his work/blog.

      • @ Jay

        I don’t think that misses the point at all. He is accusing bloggers of lacking creativity because they are not responsible for original content. He discredits their efforts of culling pictures, creating moods and an overall style for their sites because they didn’t shoot the images.

        Essentially, they attract viewers based on their appropriation and contextualization of other people’s work. Good photoblogs like jjjjound effectively create mood boards online. Similarly, Scott appropriates other people’s style or images with his photographs. He is a very talented, creative photographer, don’t get me wrong. But he does depend on others for his content. So, to some degree, he is being hypocritical.

        Do you think collage is valid art? Or that music like Girl Talk is creative?

    • I completely agree with you!

  8. Agree with him re demise of the magazine…who has time to flip through all those Ads and it looks like the Advertisers & the Editors are joined at the hip in some large mags

  9. I agree with him on Tavi. But this has to be the most pompous thing I think I’ve read in a long time. Way to be humble for someone who got their start by blogging on the internet. I used to be a huge fan, but after reading this, I am not.
    Also, your girlfriend’s shit sucks, sorry.

    Hey Scott – How about you get your fucking head out of your ass?

  10. Scott is an amazing photographer & very intelligent, but WOW, he really comes off like a jerk here. I admire his success, but not his attitude.

    And I find it funny that the interviewer totally encouraged him! “And the pictures they do take themselves often look terrible…” – what kind of comment is that? Sorry that plenty of bloggers feel that a $3,000 camera doesn’t add the kind of value that REAL CONTENT does!

    • It’s not about the camera, it’s about the eye.
      Scott says more in one shot than paragraphs of dribble and a dozen wistful selfies. I actually read all those other blogs, but the Sartorialist is honestly in a category of its own.

  11. these kids can’t handle the truth. respect for this man!

  12. His arrogance shows up every time he speaks. This man thinks he is an authority on all things fashion. I have stopped looking at his blog because it is too predictable and his pontifications are the height of arrogance for no reason.

  13. I don’t know what all the whining is about, seems like a pretty legit and honest interview to me.

  14. A very interesting interview, and from my point of view a lot of what he says is accurate. However he does come across as someone who believes his own hype. Yes, he takes beautiful photographs, and his longevity is admirable, but to discredit somebody else’s creativity as a conspiracy of the print industry does not reflect very well on him. And let’s face it, modern camera technology is so advanced that very few photographers can still be considered ‘artists’.

  15. He makes a very good point. All ‘fashion blogs’ on tumblr re-blog shit. There is hardly any original work. His blog is a true fashion blog because of the authenticity. Face the facts and the harsh reality ‘fashion blog’ tumblrites, and don’t get mad at him because I’ve seen all of you re-blog his stuff at least once. Scott’s blog is the real business. Not yours.

  16. Every time he writes something on his blog or does an interview, it just reinforces what a total idiot he is. Sure he can use a camera well, but his style will never evolve. He’s traveled the world over dozens of times, and he’s still the biggest idiot I’ve ever encountered. Scott, please, for the love of god, shut up already.

    And too bad all that money can’t buy him height.

    Also, way to pick on a 14-year-old girl. You’re about as big as you are tall. LOL.

  17. Also, why is no one even mentioning that he’s taking a good amount of money (i.e., making a living) off of AMERICAN APPAREL…The ethics of that company and its owner alone is reason enough to seriously rethink anything that this “trendsetter” is bringing to the Internet table. Can’t wait to see serious “fashunz” content that Schuman is bragging about promoting, juxtaposed with porn-y AA ads. Ugh.

  18. Um, Tavi has hired a BUNCH of photographers who shoot stuff for her website, Rookie. You look like a jealous bitch, Scott (per usual).

  19. Scott, I really commend you on this interview and respect what you have to say. It takes a lot of gut to stay true to one’s opinions in an interview, even if it means putting yourself out there.

    The way I see it, the fashion world is and has always been intensely cut-throat. This feels like a very honest and uncompromising conversation that does reflect certain traits it takes to forge a career in any competitive or artistic field.

    There are a lot of valid points in this that aren’t always talked about publicly and can easily be applied to many art/business practices. It takes grit to succeed. This interview surely demonstrates that.

  20. to say that his girlfriend is the only game-changer, and that he doesn’t read any other blogs, shows quite a limited scope of what’s going on out there right now. how can he talk with such authority on other blogs when he never leaves his bed with garance? I respect schuman’s work, but this attitude is so unattractive and disheartening. show some humility.

    • True. He can’t say Garance’s blog is the only game-changer when he doesn’t read other blogs. He has to be able to compare.

  21. Whoa, what are these hateful comments? I don’t get it.
    He’s good at what he’s doing, unlike many others. He’s just telling the truth here,guys.
    It’s called being professional, not being a dick and what else.
    I respect Scott and Garance, both are great.

    • I agree!! Everyone is entitled to their thoughts and belief systems but damn don’t crucify the man. He is super talented and his girlfriend is great too. He holds some pretty large cards right now and that is never achieved with passivity. Go ahead and disagree but stop hating!!

    • Totally agree with you!

    • For people who want Scott to hide in a hole, and act shy and dumfounded about his success are ignorant. You guys can’t handle the truth. He got where he is because he is honest about the industry he is working and competing in, as well as working his ass off and creating something that changed the current state of ALL fashion blogs. Great honest interview

    • I don’t care how good he is at his job, a grown man trash talking a 14 year old child is not cool (especially as he claims never to read her blog).

  22. Do I love his blog? Yes. Do I admire him? Yes. Do I think he’s successful? Of course. But I agree that he sounds like a jerk. Yes, Tavi is a child. (Which makes putting her down seem a little juvenile.) And she doesn’t have a lot of life experience, but these days it’s hardly like she’s disconnected from the fashion industry – she’s in regular correspondence with many designers and is invited to fashion events which is *pretty impressive for a ninth grader*.
    After reading this interview I feel like I see The Sartorialist less as “a blog with great photos” so much as a”a blog with photos of people with great style”, whom he himself did not style but is making money off of.

  23. What? He makes perfect sense to me? He’s smart and talented so what’s the problem here? I’m with him on every point. It freaks people out when someone speaks the truth. Sorry so many of you think he’s a dick. He’s the “real deal”.

  24. It seems his arrogance knows no bounds. Garance is way more charming and humble. I used to visit his blog a lot but a few things began to annoy me about him. His dismissive tone about other blogs (this is not the first time he has been rude about other bloggers) and his pictures. His style doesn’t seem to have evolved.

  25. he sounds like a complete idiot, as usual. ever since the whole story about him leaving his wife for garance, who for a while paid for his ventures (when he used to have a showroom), i’ve hated him, especially how he flaunted the relationship in the press right from the start.

    and i’m sorry but saying garance is a game changer is the most ridiculous thing i’ve ever heard. being an illustrator and a photographer is not multitalented and there are plenty of street style photogs better than her and scott together. and guess what! half of his shots are staged and styled, there’s no more authenticity about his work. and as we can tell from this interview, no more passion – fame has got to his head enough for him to talk money like that so openly

  26. brutally honest and insightful. I agree about magazines–who wants to look at trust fund children and actresses in fashion trends that don’t make sense in the real world? And, if there are no magazines there won’t be editors to photograph–maybe then he would get back to photographing more age/color diversity and people of style versus those turned out in the latest “it” fashion. I loved the good old days of his blog…

  27. Someone should teach this guy some proper manners. Bragging about your income is about the rudest thing there is.

  28. This is actually why I stopped following his blog. I can get my street style fix elsewhere – and not feed his ego. Same reason I don’t shop at Walmart :)

  29. Just because someone is a grown up doesn’t mean this person is wise or smart or knows what he or she is talking about.If someone is young, it doesn’t mean this person is neither brainless nor immature. Tavi, although I am not a fan, I must admit the girl knows what she’s writing and knows how to write, some people are just born with it and deal with it man. Plus, I bet none of us read or visits blog to get love advice??

    Saying that only your girlfriend is read-worthy is the most absurd and bureaucratic comment. Garance is a somewhat good photographer, sweet and funny in her writing, yes, but she’s not the only worth reading.

    And that people who “steal” (because most I bet credit you) your work are the ones who are re-directing part of their traffic to you and give you traffic themselves.

    You’re not Mario Testino nor Steven Meisel so don’t come up so arrogant.

    P.S. This comes from a serious grown-up.

  30. Yeah because Scott Schuman is really who I think of when I think “total package.” Homeboy can take a nice picture, but the writing leaves really a fucking lot to be desired.

    Also do you feel like a big strong man bashing a really awesome, really smart 16 year old? Because she doesn’t have a boyfriend she isn’t qualified to discuss her eloquent, thoughtful discussions on fashion/feminism/life? I call bullshit.

  31. Scott is great. So is Garance….

    …but he is wrong if he thinks streetstyle photography is creating any more original content than what Tavi is doing. He should actually read her blog, a few other types of blogs, before making his comments. To say that he’s more original than a personal style blogger, in which case he/she came up with the OUTFIT too (Scott does not, he merely captures them) in addition to photography, editing, writing…is unfounded. Also, what about DIY-based blogs? Isn’t that more original than what Scott does?

    I love his stuff, I’m glad he’s making money and came a long way. His work deserves that. However, he should give the others in the digital realm a bit more credit…or at least do a bit more RESEARCH before discrediting it.

  32. I totally agree- he didn’t even say anything mean about Tavi- Im sure she would agree with everything he said. HE didn’t say the pictures on her site are bad, the interviewer did.

  33. i don’t see how so many people are getting so butthurt over the things he’s saying. he’s speaking from his mind, from his point of view. whats wrong with that? to make such immature remarks for being straightforward and comfortably speaking from his own shoes is more than surprising to me.

    at this stage of his career i feel he has every right to say what he thinks. otherwise, he would not be where he is today. granted, i’m not neglecting the other methods of other bloggers such as tavi, but just don’t blindly call him an arrogant asshole and whatnot for what he thinks.

  34. Sounds pretty straightforward, mostly.

    A little arrogance, yes, but in his business practice he has found a new territory and staked a claim. So he sounds like a flinty pioneer.

    The arrogance is a byproduct of the extreme self-branding people need to do nowadays. Yes, we are free to create ourselves as business enterprises just as the Sartorialist does, but being a one-man band, even a successful one-man band, is very wearing. It’s harder to find or keep in touch with people who offer counsel or perspective, as it might be in the ideal, collegiate version of a corporate environment.

  35. Scott Schuman really pioneered fashion blogging and has been the game changer and principal game player in it. I don’t think it’s out of line that he owns up to how he makes his money or benefits from his point of view on fashion & finance. He obviously has enough credit to his fashion background. Picking on his height is such a weak, passe argument. And he’s right about glorifying children who claim to be bloggers – they lack the scope and knowledge to bring history and context to their blogs in a broader scope. But what is advantageous for young bloggers is that they can broaden that scope with a growing, evolving audience to match their own evolution.
    I think Schuman has always had an interesting point of view and stayed true to it – he’s never had a limited scope, he’s covered so many trends, started them, ended them, etc. He’s always been consistently provoking and has stayed true to his perception of fashion with seemingly consistent curiosity.
    It makes no difference to me whether he comes across as arrogant or not. (and come on, what “artist” isn’t?)
    Judge the work. Leave it at that.
    If you really have to “vomit” after reading this, you obviously are the one who is coming across as short-sighted.

    • In addition – Scott and Garance are two people who don’t appear to be “bought” by the ads on their blog like so many other fashion bloggers who constantly have to product push – Jamie Beck (Rugby, Tiffany & Co, Coach) Keiko Lynn – same, CaliVintage – modcloth, etc. All of these fashion blogs are really dependent on ads but Scott is right in that his blog also is but isn’t overrun or run by them. I’m grateful for that.
      As for being “jealous” over Tavi, seriously? Are you fucking kidding me? This guy sits front row at every fashion show and has literally turned The Sartorialist into an empire, his own brand, and we’re putting him on the same platform as some tween? Good grief, talk about no concept of context or grasp of the industry.

    • K–I wholeheartedly agree with both of your posts. Thank you.

  36. He is professional and honest in his opinions. He is totally right about Tavi, it is not a personal issue, She is maybe the voice of her peers. But she is power, and i hope she’ll succeed! SvS

  37. I love the work of Scott and Garance.

    Here’s why:
    !. they both follow their hearts.
    2. They both truly love fashion. I think to them and definitely to me fashion is fine art. And how it is presented to the world is also a fine art. And they figured out a way to do that, that appeals to many fans greatly. They spread joy!
    3. They both stay focused on the love of their art and go where their hearts take them. and because they were among the first in such a unique, appealing and fun way, the fans and business have followed.
    4. They have both been innovators, and they both continue to innovate. They constantly surprise me, they are never stagnant. That’s art, and it happens to be good for their businesses.
    5. Most true artists, whether successful or not, don’t spend too much time running around looking at everyone elses’ art/bolg/photos/paintings/etc. Most have tunnel vision of their own idea/concepts….yes there are influences…books/films etc., but those are merely suggestions for any artists. All art is derivative to some degree, but good art brings us something new from that background that was completely an internalization of ‘the world’ as that artist interprets it.

    Scott and Garance are happy people doing what they love, doing it well, and reaping the rewards of their heartfelt, keen eyed hard work.

    Scott’s comments of tavi were simple true statements as were his statements about magazines. the world is changing fast, and they have invented and adapted superbly.

    I feel they are my art fashion family, so i enjoy spending time with them and their latest work everyday. And i think we followers are apart of their family. I’ll bet most days, they can’t wait to get to their computers to show/tell us what surprise they found for us. neither would stick with it so long otherwise. it’s too hard to keep fresh for years on end.

    Also, most of us don’t get through life with out some crashes in our personl lives. Since theirs are in the public domain, they are public fodder, and they may not like that, but probably they don’t really care what their detractors have to say. It’s part of the ‘public’ persona and they probably just accept that, and focus on what they love.

    I’ve never met either of them in my life. So this is a sort of love letter to them from a ‘fashion family’ fan. good for them and love the neat photo of scott!
    Thanks for the interview. cool site

    • You know, I am a fan of them both too, but I was shocked reading the comments in response to this article. How is it that we never see this kind of criticism on his and Garance’s blogs? Only the positive comments can be seen. This is pure censorship and totally voids the “interactivity” that comes with blogs.

  38. I think it’s clear from Scott’s critique of Tavi that he has never actually read her blog. That girl is exceptionally sharp. I’m twice her age and an academic and I enjoy reading her musings on feminism.

  39. The first time I started losing interest in his blog was when friends told me they had set up shoot dates with him to be on the blog. “Meet me at X, wear something cute, we’ll walk around, find good spots and take pictures” which would be fine for a normal photographer, but NOT OKAY when he posts them claiming to be candid street style images…

    Now this? Yawn.

    • mte, I’ve heard about this as well, but more like ‘come to my hotel with your best clothes and we’ll style you and go outside and take pics”

  40. I think everyone hating on this dude is taking everything way out of context. He’s just being honest, not criticizing anyone. He’s right, if you don’t create the images on your blog you don’t have a right to make money off of them. And magazines ARE highly influenced by advertisers. And he doesn’t have a responsibility to read your fashion blog or whatever.

    The picture here isn’t really doing him any favors, though.

  41. I think the timing of his arrogance couldn’t be more pitiful as his blog and his POV begins to bore me. Too bad he couldn’t have represented himself to be a better role model for the young and aspiring…or even Tavi.

  42. he actually is just speaking truth…keeping it real. love it!

  43. What’s wrong with this guy? This is the kind of people who give fashion a bad name. By the way he talks you would have thought he’s come up with a cure for AIDS or Cancer. The guy just takes PICTURES of people and yet he has the audacity of calling himself a writer!

  44. Very intelligent way to do business, do what you love and leave an example for others to aspire to. Being professional not only requires an investment in time and money but is always dependent upon a certain amount of life experience.

    • As for any of his opinions on young bloggers, I don’t see that anything particularly negative was said here. If a writer can’t say what they really think then there is no point in writing at all.

  45. Okay, you don’t read any blogs. So your above comments critiquing said blogs actually mean something because… ?

    Yes, he “pioneered” streetstyle photography in some ways. Yes, his photographs are nice. However, NOTHING he has been doing in the recent past warrants any of the high praise found within these comments. His blog has become a glorified Flickr. There is no piece of shining style or fashion commentary of note.

    What now sets him apart from the numerous other street-style photographers that take similar and, in some cases, superior photographs?

  46. Tavi is so much more articulate, intelligent and visionary than this arrogant guy. I pity him for talking like this about a fifteen year old that has proved to be a talented hard worker.

    Take a look at Rookie.com and give her some credit.

    And please, stop bragging about how much money your blog makes, how popular you are, etc. It’s pretty lame and unclassy coming from yourself.

  47. All this from a man with point and shoot street style photos. Everything he said was purely to make himself look good and/or superior. I learnt nothing except for, well, he is totally obnoxious! Needless to say, I’m not reading his blog ever again.

    • Why the hate? Is it because he’s being honest? Too straightforward? I admire him for being so in his opinions and critiques. This interview definitely demonstrates aspects of the fashion and artistic world that most people sugar-coat or try to hide. And that is that this world is very critical and the cut-throat. I doubt that “fashion blogging” will remain relevant in the next several years, but if continues to do so, Mr. Schuman will definitely still remain at the top.

  48. Schuman is a competent catalog photographer with a fairly conservative aesthetic. He’s got a good eye, but he’s no Bill Cunningham. He has not a fraction of the creativity or openness of the teenage bloggers he ridicules. It’s appropriate that he celebrates money over style in this interview as he does in his blog.

  49. come on guys, notice the subtle differences between confidence and arrogance. this guy is a pro and he know it, that’s all. it’s refreshing to read such honest answers with no “fluff”, even to the point of discussing financial numbers! most people are too afraid to do that even with (especially with) there own friends and family members. good on ya, Scott.

  50. This is the end of the road for Scott Schuman. He’s going to be staking out celebrities at the Apple Store in SoHo in 6 months, broke, destitute, single, with an outdated Canon DSLR taking pictures that nobody cares about.

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